Help talk:Style Manual

To-do list for :Help:Style Manual. edit - history - watch - refresh

These are pending changes/additions. See discussions below: Add info on reissued/re-released books Novella Listing Publishers - full name or short name?

It's A Start

Just saw that you were working on this and I really like what you've got so far. --DawnBurn 14:21, 5 September 2007 (PDT)

Thanks Dawn! I know that we have not really needed this so far with just a few editors, but clearly people needed more info, and Leigh even asked me where something was the other day. This is a work in progress, though, so please feel free to bring up issues for discussion, or edit, add as needed. It was looking so quiet around here today, I was worried we had broken the wiki! --Kay T 14:44, 5 September 2007 (PDT)

This page looks great and has been SOOO helpful, there are no words. Thanks, Kay T! ---Robini 14:35, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

Author Name Format

Oh, but one question - (Ok, two now that I think about it)

1) Did you want to include instructions for Author names with spaces (like we ran into in the Cheryl St.John v. Cheryl St. John issue, and

2) When listing authors alphabetically, should we bother with "Firstname Last|Lastname First" syntax as they do here - Erotic Romance, or just leave the format as "Firstname Last" Format, to avoid confusion when new users populate pages? Personally, I am leaning towards the latter, having just found articles for "Racy Li" and "Li, Racy" that were identical, and most likely came from the page I linked to.--Robini 14:43, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

Things to add:

1 - Author names with spaces (like we ran into in the Cheryl St.John v. Cheryl St. John issue - what did we decide on this? DONE--Kay T 17:25, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

On #1 (Authors with spaces)- The suggestion you(Edit: it was actually Romancewiki) had at the time (which I agree with) was keeping the space in, unless the author explicitly instructed otherwise. I think in this particular case, the author *didn't* want the space, but as long as it still sorts fine, I'd rather leave the space in for readability.--Robini 18:41, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

See if this makes sense. --Kay T 17:25, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

2 - Author names when more than one author with same name - What did we decide on this? DONE--Kay T 17:25, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

On #2 (Authors with same name) Maybe call them #1, #2, so on, either by the order in which they were added to the wiki, or the date of their first published book (probably order...date would be too hard to manage since I'm betting most recent stuff will get added first, and changing #s will = broken links)...we could do a disambiguation page like we do for Multiple-author titles, and list the years the author wrote (1960-current, 1987-1989), or their publisher. I don't know that there's a foolproof way to tell who's who on the disamb. page (most popular title? IMDB usually puts a movie they were in next to same-name actors, or their job title...perhaps genre is also an option), but I think people will eventually get sent to the right place. We could also add a "got the wrong Author X? Here's #Y" link to the pages themselves, in the space usually reserved for psuedonyms. That might aid confused clickers in finding the author they are looking for --Robini 18:41, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

I found the existing instance of this same name thing Kathryn Blair - 1. What do you think? Also see Authors - B. --Kay T 13:03, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

Author Names In List

3 - how to list Author names in list:

okay, I sort of like the list entries to be Last, First (but I had recently noticed the problem with author pages being created in that format too!). The author "First Last" format is what shows up in categories, I think. Maybe we should leave this out there for discussion a little while. --Kay T 16:02, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

My thought: Have all be of the same format "First Last". If you wish to display them as "Last, First" do so using the pipe: [[First Last | Last, First]]. And do redirects for any pages that already created under the Last, First to First Last. --DawnBurn 18:06, 11 September 2007 (PDT) (late time stamp)

Done

I added the style that when adding author's names to the Authors pages you use Last, First which requires a piped entry. --Kay T 12:47, 12 October 2007 (PDT)

Reissued books

More Style guide questions. What is the stance on books that have been reissued? There are a bunch by Kate Hill

• Darkness Therein (reissue)
• Immaculate (reissue)
• Infernal (reissue)
• God of the Grim (reissue)

And they have (reissue) in the title. I can tell from websearching that these were all previously published, but that those publications are no longer in print. Personally, I think having one page for the title (sans reissue) with a note that they were originally published elsewhere (include name of publication/publisher if possible) and that they are currently published by Ellora's Cave. Which would mean moving all of these pages and minor editing. I don't know if there are more out there, but I wanted to get opinions on what people think.

I think there should be a one page for the book and reissue info would go on the page, just like there should be one page which would include e-book/print/audio/paper/hard/trade/graphic, etc. (Okay, maybe graphic could have its own page, but my imagination was failing me). --Kay T 18:11, 11 September 2007 (PDT)

I agree. If we make a page for each reissue, that's a LOT of redundancy, since really only the cover image, publisher, and ISBN change. Maybe we could just have first publishing (Pub, year, listing) and second publishing (Pub, year, listing)in the info section? Here's an example I put together from a reissue I'm familiar with - The Hostage. Alternately, we could do a section on "Previous Editions" (Example - The Mistress) and leave the info there. Personally, I like the look of the second one better. As for formatting it (and deciding which goes up top) I do like having the most recent ISBN/Listing first (so anyone who calls a bookstore is less likely to get told it's out of print), but I don't like that you don't see the year it was written first. What does everyone else think?--Robini 13:44, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

also, I agree with KayT's list, except that I do think movies should have a separate page, if someone (like Lifetime) bothers to adapt them, because they often do rearrange plots then. --Robini 13:44, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

Movies! I knew my brain had stopped working. The problem is that the movie adaptions are so painfully inferior (what with the rearranging the plot, etc.)! IMHO that is. I will check out examples. This work thing is really interfering with my wiki-ing. --Kay T 14:13, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

This work thing is really interfering with my wiki-ing. Word to that. Ugh. Silly work getting in the way! I'll add the above examples to my list to move/redo. There are several other titles (with correct article name format) under Category:Re-Issued Titles. I like: American Pie.

Ex: * Year: 1990, re-released in 2004 under author name Maggie Osborne

List all under the year and note new publisher/author name in that line. Avoid ISBN's (personally) or add separately to previous editions. And that way just also do the category correctly for all involved years. --DawnBurn 14:40, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

We should also remember that Reissued does not mean Re-Released. Different formats (trade/hardbound/paperback) all have different ISBNs but are (usually) the same text. Furthermore, some titles are also given a different cover on a second printing, but that is the same ISBN (I think). For The Mistress I'm curious as to why it was reissued after 3 years. What were the changes? --DawnBurn 14:43, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

My brain is hurting still. Tell me the difference between reissue and re-release. I think we will need to make this clear in any instructions. Also, you are thinking that there should be a category entry for each year the book was released/reissued/released? I guess I was thinking that the "release" year should be the copyright year, but it obviously is not the same (but should it be?). Or the first release date. (I ran into this with my book database for my PDA. Release year and copyright year being different, that is.) Late, confusion, work...

Yes * Year: 1990, re-released in 2004 under author name Maggie Osborne

Yes: List all under the year and note new publisher/author name in that line.

Something like that: Avoid ISBN's (personally) or add separately to previous editions. --Kay T 17:16, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

LOL, I thought you were talking about the MOVIE American Pie until I followed the link. --Kay T 17:19, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

Re-issued in the main context of this discussion means that the book was out of print for some reason and then put back into print, usually with some change (publisher, author name, physical to ebook, etc.) and often with additional editing of the material. Those books I do think should have a category for each 'release' year as they were released in those years with differences. However there are some books (like many of the ones from LUNA) that are issued in a new format (Trade Paperback versus Mass Market) but no change to the publisher/author/material. This action is not the same, but the new format has a new ISBN and occasionally a new cover. I can't recall if this is called re-releasing or what. I don't think that action should necessarily be noted. And then there is just reprinting, which means the first print run sold out and they went back for a second printing (rare for category romances). Depending on the length of time between runs there might be a different copyright if the author's terms of contract had lapsed and had to be renewed. But that is esoteric and not germain to this discussion, IMO.

'Suggested standard:'

For books that have been re-issued (the book was out of print for some reason and then put back into print with a change to the author name/publisher/physical to ebook/etc.) please note all issues in the year line. Example:

• Year: 1990, re-released in 2004 under author name Maggie Osborne

Please also add the book to all Category: XXXX Releases as appropriate. In the above example, that would be Category: 1990 Releases & Category: 2004 Releases.

When linking to the book on Amazon or another online retailer, please link to the most recent issue of the title.

What do you all think? --DawnBurn 19:01, 12 September 2007 (PDT)

I think that this is a pretty good solution. 1 - just one page, not a page for every release, 2 - information on the year line. I am not sure about the linking to Amazon. It would be a pain to have to keep these links up to date to the most recent release. Maybe just a suggestion? Or maybe note that it is the first release? I don't know. --Kay T 11:35, 15 September 2007 (PDT)

I also am not sure about having a separate year category for each "release." That would mean one year for the hard back, one year for the paper? One year for the audio (assuming a different year), etc.? --Kay T 18:14, 16 September 2007 (PDT)

My thought: Only list a Category for release for First release and any releases post out of print. So no to an addition for hard vs. paperback. But yes if the book came out in 1976, went out of print, and was reissued (new publisher maybe) in 1990. I have no clue for audio book/movie/etc. =( --DawnBurn 18:34, 16 September 2007 (PDT)

I killed all the above struck reissue titles and am unlinking for now. --DawnBurn 22:56, 17 September 2007 (PDT)

RomanceWiki, Romance Wiki, Romancewiki

Do we have a preferred style for the name of this place?? --Kay T 11:35, 15 September 2007 (PDT)

I like RomanceWiki. --DawnBurn 12:11, 15 September 2007 (PDT)

It is camel case "RomanceWiki".--Romancewiki 09:34, 16 September 2007 (PDT)

Done

--Kay T 16:47, 16 September 2007 (PDT)

Novellas & Anthologies

How do we want to list these? Specifically:

1. Do we list Novellas on the "Books" pages by first letter of title? Or just the title of the Anthology?
2. How do we list authors on Anthologies/Novellas? Example: Always A Bridesmaid - Julie Kistler. This is actually the title of the anthology. Kistler is listed as the only author via amazon, though there are 3 authors and 3 stories inside, see my copy of the amazon listing on the talk page.
3. Should we have a different template for Novellas instead of the Book template?

---

• On #2: I responded to this example on the book's talk page. --Leigh, 18 September 2007

My thoughts:

1. List only the anthologies on the Books letter pages as they are books, not the novellas.
   1. Possible problem: Ebooks that release novellas as solo entities.
2. I say list all the authors on a given Anthology.
   1. How to do the Default sort?
3. Yes. That way we can help make sure novellas link to the parent Anthology and aren't italicized.

--DawnBurn 21:27, 17 September 2007 (PDT)

I actually feel that Novellas shouldn't have their own page. (See my discussion at: Talk:Starry, Starry Night ... I guess I should move that here). For the most part, their description can be folded into the anthology page, unless there's something really super special about them.

As for (2) I've been just spelling out all the authors when I put an anthology into the books page (you can copy paste it from the anthology page anyway), and I just used the word " - Anthology" in the place of where the author's name would go to differentiate out it out in the title page of the one Anthology I ran into that had the same title as other (single-author) books. What we'll do if we get two similarly titled Anthologies, though... that I don't know. I'd kind of favor " Title - Anthology Year" or "Title - Anthology 1/2/3" over picking a single author to stand in on the page title. But we could put all authors in the listing.

My example is at Jingle Bell Rock - Anthology 2005 (I guess I did include the year, after all), and the Jingle Bell Rock Disamb. page --Robini 15:31, 18 September 2007 (PDT)

• I would not list the Novellas on the books page. There is an Anthologies page where Anthologies are listed with their Novellas if possible. The Anthologies could also be listed on the books page, I guess.
• I would probably prefer not to have a separate page for each novella, EXCEPT, if the page has been created for whatever reason (published stand alone as e-book or paper, or someone loves it and did a page) I am not sure what it hurts to keep it as a separate page. I just don't think we should start moving info to separate pages.
• If the Anthology is a "Same title" problem, I think putting "Title - Anthology" is the best solution. Putting the year in is not a bad idea, but necessary?. See Leigh's comment on Always A Bridesmaid - Julie Kistler, that was not an anthology (Amazon was wrong! Gasp!). Now we have the question of what to do with two Anthologies with the same name. Even the year the same (or could be), so the author chose to put the publisher "title - publisher". ??
• There are no author categories on book pages so we don't have a DEFAULTSORT issue on the Anthologies page either, do we?

Referring to Publishers

I've seen a lot of inconsistency in whether we leave on the "press"/"LLC"/"Publishing"/"Imprints" At the end of a publisher's name (See: St. Martin's Press v. Kensington Books frex). Is there a general guideline for leave it in/lop it off? It's 6 of one, a half dozen of the other for me as far as I'm concerned, but it would be nice to have consistency. --Robini 15:22, 18 September 2007 (PDT)

I think this has grown out of laziness and many editors. I may want to add the publisher's name on the book or author page, but not have anything handy to look up the full and correct title of the publisher, so I often added what the the publisher is caled - Avon, Kensington, Zebra, Warner. In fact it is Warner Books, Kensington Books - Who knew?? I think your solution of a redirect to the correct title is the easiest way of handling this. In the case of Harlequin and Harlequin wyatever Ltd. the one page contained info about the company and the other about the publishing lines, so I left it like that. We have had to add "imprint," "series," etc. to names to distinguish them from books and other entities. This is probably not consistent, but we have tried. so?? I would say the title of the article should be the full name of the publisher, but the info in the articles could be just to the "nickname" with a redirect to the page with the full name. Does that sound right? --Kay T 18:33, 18 September 2007 (PDT)